locked in battle

Western vs Islamic Values: So what if they clash?

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Respect Muslim Civil Rights

by Lenna

For the last few years, I’ve been peering into British society from across the pond. It’s a confusing landscape, to say the least.

A handful of gunman attacked Paris, none of them British. Yet the British government reminded British Muslims they need to do more to fight extremism.

The notion of Muslim collective guilt must be deeply entrenched for British politicians to consider this peculiar juxtaposition reasonable.

British Islam?

We are being told the British Muslims need to fight extremism within their community by formulating and adopting a “British Islam.” This new Islam must be compatible with “British Values.”

What is happening in the UK strikes me as a distilled microcosm of what is happening throughout Western Europe. it’s happening to a lesser degree in North America.

The British establishment accuses Muslims of fostering an “us versus them” mentality while clearly reinforcing that mentality themselves. Muslims allegedly promote “non-violent extremism,” and thereby create a conveyor belt to violent extremism.

As an outsider looking in, I find the willful blindness of the British establishment stunning.

In a letter sent to over 1,000 British Muslim leaders and subsequently endorsed by Prime Minister David Cameron, Secretary of State Eric Pickles wrote:

Letter to British Muslims

We are proud of the reaction of British communities to this attack. Muslims from across the country have spoken out to say: not in our name.

But there is more work to do. We must show our young people, who may be targeted, that extremists have nothing to offer them. We must show them that there are other ways to express disagreement: that their right to do so is dependent on the very freedoms that extremists seek to destroy. We must show them the multitude of statements of condemnation from British Muslims; show them these men of hate have no place in our mosques or any place of worship, and that they do not speak for Muslims in Britain or anywhere in the world.

The Elephant in the Living Room

Pundits and politicians claim with a straight face that extremists want to “destroy our freedom.”

I initially attributed this to the idiocy of George Bush. He told the American people the 9/11 hijackers attacked because they “hate our freedom.”

While this plays well with the Fox News crowd, the alternative media dismisses it as nonsense.

Europeans often ridicule Americans for their political ignorance. Yet it seems the same theme plays well there too.

But if it’s true that we are attacked for “our freedom,” why do the attackers always cite unjust foreign policy as their motive?

Of course, the Paris attacks on the offices of Charlie Hebdo were easier to frame this way. One of the reasons cited was revenge for vile depictions of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ in a series of cartoons.

Therefore, the pundits say, this was clearly an attack on freedom, or more precisely, freedom of expression. Accepting that argument still requires us to ignore the fact the perpetrators also cited specific policy grievances as part of their motive.

The Unspoken “British Value”

It seems to me one of the key objectives is to silence Muslim criticism of UK foreign policy. The right to plunder and slaughter with impunity is the unspoken “British value” we must preserve.

Acquiescence appears to be the wage Muslims will be asked to pay in exchange for social acceptance. Of course, no one states this outright, but it seems clear enough to me.

For my purposes here, I will try to avoid going off on another unjust foreign policy tangent.

It will suffice to say if Muslims are to combat extremism by showing young people “there are other ways to express disagreement” than through violence, then the British government must ensure there are actually “other ways” available to “express disagreement.”

They also need to actually resolve some of the underlying issues that are generating anger.

The Muslim Problem

But even if there were no foreign policy dimension, some of the questions surrounding the “Muslim problem” would remain. The established logic seems to be that

  1. Islam guides Muslims.
  2. Islam is incompatible with Western values.
  3. Therefore Muslims must abandon Islam, reform Islam, or pack their bags and leave.

I believe this logic is based on a faulty premise.

The Solution

I think Muslims can successfully integrate into Western society, whether or not Islam is compatible with “British Values,” or “Western Values” in the broader context.

Muslims residing in Western countries, for the most part, are not asking to live in an Islamic society. They are asking for their rights within Western society, which is not the same thing at all.

The question this raises for me is what are our rights within Western society? Here in the US, I would say Muslims are required to abide by the laws of the land. Sharia requires the same, and as such, I don’t see a conflict.

From what I can tell, the recent focus on “non-violent extremism” is really code for “Muslim views that do not comport with British values.”

Litmus Tests

Harry’s Place is ahead of the game, having formulated litmus tests to vet “non-violent extremists” years ago.

All of these litmus tests appear in one way or another to relate to a “British value,” which Harry’s Place has taken it upon themselves to enforce. Their method is relentless harassment of any Muslim who gains even modest prominence.

Not satisfied with grilling Muslims regarding their views in the real world, Harry’s Place also demands to know their views regarding the same issues in a hypothetical “Ideal Islamic State,” which in my view strikes at the heart of this competing values debate.

It’s difficult to see the benefit in this “Ideal Islamic State” line of questioning, which seems to serve no purpose other than to alienate Muslims. I was born and raised in the US and am happy to abide by the laws in our secular state.

I have no interest in imposing Islam on America. But I confess I would nevertheless fail the “Ideal Islamic State” litmus test.

If I left this country and moved to an Islamic State, I’d most likely do so because I wanted to live under a different social order, which is exactly what many Westerners tell me to do if I’m not completely delighted with the way things are here.

Why is it important that I impose Western secular values on a hypothetical “Ideal Islamic State”?

Muslim Civil Rights

It seems more rational to me to distinguish between Muslim civil rights within the existing social order, and efforts to overturn the social order in favor of an Islamic state.

Here in the US, Muslims lack both the desire and the power to impose Islam on Americans. I suspect that is also true in the UK.

But to the extent Muslims are attempting to replace the social order through “creeping sharia,” I think people are within their rights to oppose such initiatives.

Instead, it seems the UK government is flirting with the idea of playing thought police. Officials increasingly  insist Muslims not only abide by the law but also embrace “British values.”

This leads me to wonder precisely what are “British Values”?

Freedom of Expression

The UK, like other Western countries, champions the right of free expression, with the barest interference from the state. In practice, all Western countries curtail free speech that offends their sensibilities, though arguably less so in the US.

The recent roundup and arrest of over 50 people on the heels of a well-publicized march in support of “Freedom of Expression” was a spectacular example of French hypocrisy with regard to much-vaunted free speech ideals.

In the Ideal Islamic State, it’s true that unbridled free speech would not be considered ideal. There are limitations placed on anything that denigrates Islam, for example.

Muslims curtail free speech in accordance with their sensibilities but skip the inevitable hypocrisy by saying so up front.

Whatever the practical difference, Harry’s Place vets Muslims. Their litmus tests usually revolve around blasphemy and apostasy.

Muslims who are questioned must immediately and unequivocally state they are opposed to all punishments for blasphemy and apostasy. This opposition applies to the real world, but also in an “Ideal Islamic State.”

Any hesitation or attempt to introduce nuance will get the targeted Muslim placed on the unofficial blacklist. He or she will subsequently be hounded and demonized relentlessly.

We must not only refrain from actually punishing apostates. We must have the correct THOUGHTS on the matter, or we can expect to be denounced as a “non-violent extremist.”

Maajid Nawaz

Some months ago, Maajid Nawaz sparked a controversy by tweeting a Jesus & Mo cartoon. In response, some Muslims peacefully protested through the democratic processes afforded to them in the UK.

Harry’s Place was outraged. They claimed petitions and campaigns to de-list political candidates were unacceptable attempts to impose blasphemy restrictions on the citizens of the UK.

In other words, Muslims must venerate democracy and eschew violence. They must also refrain from peacefully participating in democratic processes when those activities offend the sensibilities of hypocritical “muscular liberals.”

That is the Harry’s Place vision of a “free society” where “non-violent extremists” are kept in their place.

Sexual Anarchy

I don’t know about the UK, but here in the US, sexual anarchy prevails.

Traditional sexual morals rooted in Christianity were first savaged by the Sexual Revolution. Then by Second Wave feminism, and most recently by Gay Pride and Gender Theory.

If you dare to suggest heterosexuality is normal, you have committed a microaggression by reinforcing the “heteronormative” patriarchy, or some such nonsense.

Against this backdrop, some view observant Muslims as regressive. In accordance with Islamic doctrine, there are two genders, male and female. Marriage is between people of the opposite gender, and sexual activity is acceptable only within the confines of marriage.

While not all Muslims follow these rules, the rules themselves remain intact. For many “muscular liberals,” that is not acceptable.

Homosexuals as Bludgeons

Harry’s Place grills Muslims on their views regarding homosexuals. Anyone who tries to meet them halfway will soon learn compromise is pointless.

You must first concede homosexual civil rights, then you must concede to gay marriage. Finally, you must renounce the notion that homosexuality is a sin, a position clearly at odds with Islamic doctrine.

Western politicians and pundits make much adieu of Islamic restrictions on homosexuality. Even though historically, many Muslim societies have actually been surprisingly tolerant in this regard.

One of the reasons for this apparent contradiction is the Islamic emphasis on preserving the prescribed social order. What goes on in private is one thing.

But if you insist on launching an advertising campaign aimed at “normalizing” sinful behavior, you are likely to suffer consequences. Islam defines some sexual activities, such as sodomy and adultery, as not only as a sin but a crime, punishable by law.

There is no “anything goes” because “consenting adults” aren’t “hurting anyone.”

Sexual crimes, especially when flaunted in public, ultimately hurt everyone. This is because they cause societal breakdown, just as we see happening right now in the US.

Even if someone believes homosexuality is a punishable sin in an Ideal Islamic State, a hypothetical situation, shouldn’t cause alarm. Harassing anyone who holds the “wrong” views doesn’t sound very “liberal” to me.

Why can’t UK Muslims continue to believe homosexuality is a sin, as long as they don’t call for persecution or violence against gays?

Gender Apartheid and More Hypocrisy

Some months ago, neocon-backed groups in the UK manufactured a “controversy” over so-called “gender apartheid” at a public university.

Some women from Hizb ut-Tahrir organized an event offering separate seating for men and women. No one who planned to attend the lecture complained.

But some muscular liberal busy-bodies decided this seating arrangement was unacceptable and arranged a protest.

This was not the first time something like this happened.

Previously some Muslims had agreed to debate atheists on campus and had set up separate seating for women and men as well as a mixed seating option. These options did not appease some of the atheist men in attendance.

They insisted on sitting in the women’s section. The women made space and allowed them to share their section. Then the men insisted on sitting in between the women.

In other words, they wanted to impose themselves on women in order to make a point. We should not oppress women by allowing them to choose separate seating.

Authoritarian liberalism spawns these kinds of contradictions.

Double Standards

The reaction from the Harry’s Place crowd and other blogs in their circle was interesting. Some of them even asserted separate seating would be acceptable for lesbians.

The reason is lesbians might find it more comfortable to have their own space! These women’s comfort apparently matters. In the final analysis, it’s the underpinning moral principle they oppose, not the behavior itself.

In practice, they privilege homosexuals over Muslims. This is presumably because this preferential treatment fits with their relentless assault on traditional moral values.

Some of the far-right anti-Muslim groups in the UK and elsewhere accuse Muslims of undermining their “Judeo-Christian” values. It seems to me it is secular “progressives” and liberals who have deliberately overturned the social order, not Muslims.

If pressed, I wonder if these people could make a coherent argument. What are the “Judeo-Christian” values the Muslims in their midst savaging?


I suspect the UK will not fare well in its latest campaign. The government is trying to force Muslims to abandon their legitimate political grievances.

How will they police adoption of  secular “British values?” If anything, I think this approach will further drive a wedge between communities. This may alienate well-integrated Muslims.

I think a better option would be to define non-negotiable legal boundaries for all citizens. Everyone should have the same rights and responsibilities within that framework.

Otherwise, the UK may curtail freedom and devolve into a police state. In the name of freedom, and the government may round people up on ill-defined charges of “non-violent extremism.”

As to whether or not Islam is at odds with Western values, I say yes, in certain respects, it is. But so what?

That doesn’t stop Muslims from living happy, productive lives as citizens of secular democracies.

Like everyone else, they can exercise their rights within the boundaries of that social order. So long as they abide by the law of the land.

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Nicholas II
Nicholas II

To the point and an excellent summary.

Great article asking questions about who exactly is creating the clash of civili… | MuslimMinds.net
Mark G
Mark G

We have the biggest recruitment drive for extremist & terror groups here for years and what you see ‘over the pond’ is too sanitised for you to make a valid assessment other than biased towards your Muslim brethren. The reality in the UK is very different and you would do well to concentrate on your own back yard where you have more information.